Over the past decades, Swedish reed player Mats Gustafsson has become one of the key players of the European free music and experimental scenes. One crucial flagship is the Fire! Orchestra, which he brings to the Summer Bummer festival, albeit in a special CBA (Community Based Activity) format.

This exceptional two-day event is the result of a strong connection between the band’s core members and Sound in Motion / Summer Bummer festival that has been built throughout the years. Some of you might remember the blistering concert Gustafsson played with Brian Chippendale (Lightning Bolt) and Massimo Pupillo (Zu) during the very first Summer Bummer Festival. Or earlier concerts by Fire! Orchestra, Sonore, The Thing, The Underflow and, earlier this year, the magical performance of Ghosted.

While the core band of Fire! Orchestra still consists of regulars, the line-up is further expanded with a new, exquisite group of musicians. On the first night, they surround themselves with youngsters between 8 and 12 years old. For the second concert, they will perform with some of the finest talents of the international creative music scene. More than enough reason for a discussion with the master himself, who was generous with his time and energy, as always.

The legacy of Brötzmann

First, let’s go back a few months, to when you co-curated a three-day tribute to Peter Brötzmann in Warsaw. How was that experience?

It was one of those rare occasions you will remember forever. It was truly a worthy tribute to the music and legacy of Peter’s music and art. It was creative, relaxed, surprising and fantastic. The overall vibe was warm and just very creative. An amazing audience supported every noise, every film and every photo exhibited. There were way too many highlights to mention just a few. The music was insane. So much creativity. And artists from very many different fields of music and arts. We could not have wished for more. There was total magic happening. And everyone present could feel it.

How do you approach an event like that as a curator?

I curated the program together with my dear friend John Corbett [writer, record producer and gallery owner based in Chicago, gp]. It was easy to do this together. We know very much how the other thinks.We wanted a different program compared to the earlier tributes in London and Chicago. So, the line up was actually quite different. We also wanted to include films and a photo exhibition by Žiga Koritnik [Slovenian photographer, often capturing improvised concerts, gp], who is working on a fantastic photo book on Peter. We wanted artists present that have played with Peter for a long time, as well as artists that didn’t, but have been heavily inspired by his art and music. It is of course a bit frustrating to leave some names out. The initial list was long, phheeeww, but as curators you have to make some decisions. And we worked closely with the Pardon, To Tu crew on it all. Daniel Radtke and Magdalena Dudek at Pardon are just some of the best people around. And the club might be the best club there is for creative music right now. Anywhere.

What would you say is Brötzmann’s most important legacy?

DIY. No one else is doing it for you. Just go your own way. Fuck the rest. This is the core of it all. There are many many other qualities to it all, and to his legacy. The life of an artist is a complex one, of course. I learned a LOT from Peter. Good things and bad things, ha ha!!
He is highly missed. That goes without saying. There is so much bullshit around us all the time. Politically, musically, ideologically. Peter was a master in pointing it all out. The legacy is still there. The music is still there. The art. And the memories. They will never leave us.

I was fortunate enough to experience Peter Brötzmann’s music many times. Some of my favorite concerts were the ones with the Chicago Tentet. A free improvising band of that size, it almost felt miraculous and the memories will always remain special. Do you also have favorite Brötzmann bands?

Too many to mention. There were many meetings, many tours, many concerts, many recordings. Exhibitions. And time shared on and off stage. He had a certain kind of wisdom that is rare to find these days. I’m happy we took the initiative in the late 90s to show his visual work again, for the first time since the 60s. I curated a large exhibition at the Ystad Art museum, together with Thomas Millroth, showing most of his large pieces, posters and more. When the Tentet was working, when the music REALLY was together, it was pure magic. On the other hand, we played many mediocre concerts as well. That is the nature of improvised music. The willingness to take risks. I love that fact. Sonore [trio consisting of Brötzmann and Gustafsson with Ken Vandermark, gp] is one of my favourite groups of all time. We made some concerts that was over-the-fucking-top, hard to explain. Well, all adventures with Peter were a challenge. I loved every second of it.

Fire! Orchestra CBA

I believe I witnessed one of the very first Fire! Orchestra performances at the Konfrontationen festival in Nickelsdorf in 2013. Do you remember that one?

Oh yes, our bass player Johan Berthling got sick just before the gig and had to go to the hospital. Our guitar player David Stackenäs had to sub for him, playing bass all evening. It was hilarious. But Johan Berthling is unique. The way he plays the bass can never be replaced. Konfrontationen was an amazing festival. The legacy. The history of it all. I’m proud to live in the same village, even if I don’t have much connection to the festival these days. They go their own way and there are not many “konfrontationen” any longer.

Did you expect the Orchestra would still exist more than a decade later?

Fuck yeah! Ha ha!! No, seriously, you can never take anything for granted. It started at the end of a Fire! trio tour, as kind of a joke: ”Let’s invite all our friends in Stockholm and make a HUGE concert.” That was the idea. The very first concert was monumental. Loads of drummers. Loads of bass players. Loads of everything. Nowadays, we include artists from wherever we play. And we play with different drummers right now, in the Echoes version, while our drummer Andreas Werliin is taking a break from the Orchestra, in order to focus on our trio and some other projects. The Fire! Orchestra is still strong. There’s a huge French participation right now in the ensemble, with the great Nout people, like the extraordinary flautist Delphine Joussein, and also Julien Desprez doing the most aggressive guitar slaying you can find these days. We are still very much interested in moving forward. This is possible because of the rotation of musicians. And what that gives to the music. And the CBA, Community Based Activity, when we work with local musicians. THIS IS SOMETHING!! Growing and expanding the networks. Expanding the F!O universe. I love it.

What has changed the most for the Orchestra, besides the instrumentation?

Every version has its qualities. It depends very much on the personalities involved, and their instruments. Also: each composition means a new version of the basic Fire! Orchestra. Exit, Enter, Ritual, Arrival, Actions, Echoes… the story goes on. The Orchestra HAS to change. We don’t want to repeat stuff. We want to move on, musically and artistically. It is tough economically, almost impossible, but we want to show that it IS possible, even with cultural fundings being cut back and such. We NEED to make it happen!

There have been many different line-ups. Are there any ambitions or dreams left?

Too many to mention. We want to keep the possibilities open. Every year there are new creative players showing up.There will be more changes. Of course. Younger and older musicians come to our attention and we feel we need to include them. That is part of the process. I love working like that. To include new musicians into the pool, that really affects the music. It goes into new territories. The inclusion of two rock drummers, David Sandström and Blanche Lafuente, pushed us in a certain direction. Arrival had a string quartet and many clarinets, that was also defining the music we played. It is a process. And it will remain a process.
And we started doing the CBA version simply to expand the possibilities. For us. And for other musicians, the next generation. We invite artists on their own merits. It all depends on their musical language and what they can contribute towards the collective. We choose musicians for the CBA In close collaboration with the local hosts. It is a win-win thing. We do believe that and love meeting new artists. new people. It has been like a dream so far. In Denmark, Sweden, Italy ,Slovenia and elsewhere.

Any idea how you will approach the two performances at Summer Bummer?

We have our material, our pieces and our way to deal with it all. We might include some older melodies and forms as well. Or create entirely new ones. But the basics is the material from Echoes. We will work on getting everyone on the same path and working with the material as one entity. One unit. A collective. That is what we do. The rehearsals will decide very much how we will use the material in the live situation. Nothing is fixed beforehand. Everything will be decided as we go. We have our way.

Do you have earlier experience doing concerts with the Orchestra and children?

We did a similar concert in Aarhus, Denmark, recently. It was hilarious. Great fun!! And the music came out in a beautiful way. Seven drummers, seven bass players, eight guitarists, ten keyboards players and four vocalists, the most unusual instrumental setting ever. And no wind instruments, ha ha! Absolutely hilarious. We love working with young musicians in this context.
The openness was total. And very honest.

Indispensable witnesses

Photographer Žiga Koritnik is working on the follow-up to his already classic photo book Cloud Arrangers, this time with Brötzmann as the focus. What does Žiga’s work mean to you?

Žiga is a brother. Since many years. We first met in 2000 and it has been a party ever since. We are from the same generation and we work really well together, had many collaborations over the years. And he is one of very few photographers that Peter Brötzmann really liked and even admired, being a great photographer in his own right. Žiga’s sense of the image is fantastic. How he can capture the moment. And more. When it comes to music, he is #1. In close competition with his partner Petra Cvelbar and Swedish photographer Johan Bergmark. Those guys are just amazing. And very different in style. I love photography. How you can freeze and capture a moment. Žiga is a master.

Do you think it is crucial to have witnesses for the free music scene, with images and words?

Of course, that goes without saying. We need all of this. Someone needs to document it all. In order to remember. In order to learn from history. In order to move forward. In order to develop the music. The big problem is that the writing about music is of very, very uneven quality and done with rather closed minds, ha ha. And many writers are just doing shit because of selfish reasons and with various agendas in mind. It is a weird unbalance. I would love to review some critics one day. Because some of them really fuckin’ suck. If they would be playing music, they would never ever get a gig, without paying for it. Some of them are not taking their job seriously. At all.
Of course there are exceptions. There are writers with very defined languages and style. And knowledge. Commitment. Who really enrich the tradition by seeing new connections and patterns. Brian Morton, Peter Margasak and John Corbett are three favourite writers of mine. The level of criticism about poetry, literature, theatre, dance and other creative art forms is on a much higher level. It has been like this for years.I wish it would change soon. Music critique comes at the bottom of any newspaper these days…
We need a new generation of critics now. Where is the young generation? The story has to be told. In a new and creative way.

Would you ever consider writing an autobiography?

I talk about myself through my music. And I express myself – in text – with my discaholic essays. I published many of them in the Swedish Orkesterjornalen the past ten years and now I write for WeJazz instead. In English, reaching many more people. Those guys are doing fantastic work with their magazine, in addition to producing records, concerts and festivals. Very impressive.
I have no plans of writing an actual autobiography, ha ha! But, I want to publish a second version of the Discaholics! book with my collected essays on discaholism and related behaviours.
Writing is fun and creative. A book on free jazz on vinyl will be out, in close collaboration with Thurston Moore and Byron Coley. It has been in the works for 5 years now. Sooooooon!!

Any books about free music/musicians that you recommend in particular?

There are quite a few now. The latest book on Albert Alyer (Holy Ghost by Richard Koloda) is badass. Really good. As well as the two monumental jazz biographies on Sonny Rollins (Saxophone Colossus by Aidan Levy) and Monk (The Life and Times of an American Original by Robin D.G. Kelly). Super interesting biographies on all levels. When it comes to free music, everyone needs to read Derek Bailey’s Improvisation: its Nature and Practice in Music, a classic for many reasons. If you are interested in the mechanics of free music and exercises connected to the music form, there is only one really great book: John Stevens’ Search & Reflect. And Steve Lacy: Conversations [edited by Jason Weiss, gp] is a total killer. I learned shitloads by reading that. Hilarious! Of the older books, one of my favourites is Art Taylor´s Notes and Tones.
Now, you got me started, ha ha!! In contemporary music and ethnic music there are many heavy books and biographies as well, but we can get around to that another time! I cannot live without Sun Ra’s poetry books and Wadada Leo Smith’s beautiful notes (8 pieces). Essential stuff.

Free music is about the moment, the exchange between people, happening in the NOW. Are recordings worthy alternatives, do they have a ‘witness’ purpose, or are they mostly stuff to sell and perhaps make some money?

Well, first of all: we do not make much money on the records. It’s already very hard to break even. The records we do are mainly for promotion, in order to get more gigs and concerts. In order to survive as musicians. I love records, you know that. I’m a collector. I’m a confessed discaholic. When it comes to getting more and better work, for promotional reasons, I prefer cd’s. They’re easier to carry and cheaper to produce. But the whole process of making vinyl records is still very much my cup of rye. I love the process. It includes everything I love around music. As a collector.
Yes, sure the music is in the NOW. In the moment, but I’m very happy that we can capture some of it, in order to learn from the past. Going back is the only way to move forward. I learned that early. I’m still true to that. Recordings are needed. For information. For inspiration. As much as I love to document my music, I tend to like studio recordings more these days. In order to control the sound and to use the studio as a creative tool. I don’t like live recordings so much any more. It was totally the opposite twenty years ago. I like playing live and leaving it live. Alive.

Looking back (or refusing to do so)

You’ll be 60 this year. Did you accomplish what you wanted to accomplish by this time?

60? Really? I had no idea, ha ha. Well, this is about a process. And it is – thanx Thor & Odin – a lifelong process that never ends. We can always develop what we do. Go deeper and find new ways and paths. IF WE WANT TO. Some artists are already old at 23. Some artists, like Joe McPhee and Christer Bothén, are forever young. And they are way over 80 now. It is all about attitude. I will never be done. The day when I’m not curious any longer, I will stay at home. Curiosity is everything. I’m dying to find out more, much more about new artists, new music, new languages. It is all there, and in my vinyl archive. I’m extremely happy that it has been possible to survive playing this music. It is a privilege. Loads of work and heavy sacrifices. But so much worth it. The rewards are immense. We need to look back in order to see what is coming up at the horizon.

What would you have done differently?

Nothing. No reason to regret anything. It cannot be changed anyway. I did stupid things as well as good things. But why worry? We need to move on. And on. And on.

If you hear music by your younger self, what comes to mind?

It’s a difficult feeling. I seldom do this. But the process is the process. And everything I did in the past was necessary in order to make me what I am now. That is all clear to me.

As an experienced musician and bandleader, do you feel a kind of responsibility towards the music, the scene, other musicians?

I have a huge responsibility. I am very aware. And this is a privilege. To spread the info, traditions and the mechanics of the music onwards. Not by telling and writing people on their noses, but by showing what doors need to be opened. By themselves. This music is all about SHARING. And if we really do that, without stupid ego and career thinking, we will succeed. We will find a change. The whole thing could change, if we learn to listen freely – we can learn to play freely – and we can learn to think and act freely. As easy as that.

Are there any bands/records from your career that you feel have been overlooked?

Ha ha! Many. And none. I don’t care, really. When I was younger, I was frustrated that some records seemed to just disappear in the clouds. When you put all of yourself into the album and hope it might change something. You learn quickly that the process is slower than that. Much slower. And good things need time. A lot of time. We just released a recording with Gush [Gustafsson’s trio with Sten Sandell and Raymond Strid, gp] from 1998. We totally forgot about it for years. We listened back earlier this year and we were amazed by the music. Totally wild to hear it now. Afro Blue came out on TROST records. Some music does not age in a good way. We know this. But some music still feels very fresh. The Gush recordings really surprised me in a creative way. We are now back touring together, because of this 1998 recording. When I listen back to recordings I did with Günter Christmann and Paul Lovens, I smile.

I know you like to share music that didn’t receive its due. Can you tell me about one or two musicians that you feel are ridiculously overlooked?

Swedish saxophone player Lars-Göran Ulander, an altoist. He went to school with my mom in Umeå. He became the boss of the Swedish jazz radio department early on and put his own music on hold all those years. His music is insanely GREAT!! Watch out for releases of his old 60s/70s recordings later this year on Caprice / Öpett Ett.
Swedish tenorist Anders Ekholm is also a monster. He is simply great. There are many Scandinavian (and others) musicians that died in the 50s and 60s because of drug abuse and related behaviours. Too many to mention here – but , please check out the works of Rolf Billberg, Allan Wajda and Bo Wärmell. Absolute kick ass!
There are very very many overlooked musicians on this planet. Everywhere. Because of gender, religion, geography, race, politics and other reasons they are removed from history. A great example is Mary Lou Williams, who created concertant jazz, not as pure entertainment or dance music, at the same time as Ellington. Her Zodiac Suite is unmatched from that time. A VERY clear example of gender disqualification of the worst kind.
And since forever, people need to check out the works of these great artists: Polly Bradfield, Joe Maini, Hal McKusick, Helmut Brandt, Hermann Keller, Mad Man Jones and of course the great Tony Fruscella!
There are musicians that are only good at promoting themselves and don’t have much to add to the music scene and the tradition. No names here. They know who they are.

Is it important to you to leave a trace? Why (not)?

It is not up to me to judge. I do what I do, because I have to. I have to do my research. Whatever mark it leaves, that’s not important to me right now. Marks might be left and only history will tell what was important or radical.

Free / freedom

What do ‘free’ and ‘freedom’ mean to you?

No one is really free. But we are always free to choose. Free to make the choices. At ANY time. This is important. The freedom to choose. Your own path. That is IT!

Free music also implies that one can make (or dare to make) mistakes. Do you still make a lot of mistakes and how do you deal with them?

Mistakes are my main tool in order to develop, as a musician and as a human being. This is important and always valid. We only learn by mistakes. We never really learn by success with whatever we do. For my extended techniques on my instruments, mistakes have been the main tool for development. Always. I think that is beautiful. Mistakes are beautiful. IF you learn from them. As simple as that. This is an essential key to everything. We need to be willing to make mistakes. To dare to make mistakes, otherwise nothing will fucking change. I look forward to all upcoming mistakes. They will for sure arrive shortly.

Evan Parker once said that the central paradox of free music is that the better prepared you are, the freer you can be. Do you agree?

Fuck yeah. 100 %. Without a really REALLY advanced instrumental control / technique you can never be fast enough. To respond. Or not to respond. The choice. The more knowledge you have, the better. Just add and add and add. There is no end to it. The more you learn, the better. Even if you forget about some of it. You need the technique in order to be free. It is a paradox, yes. But I live by it. I love to deepen my shit. To develop my own personal language. My techniques. This is the only way. Evan said a lot of good stuff. His shit should be collected in book form, if you ask me.

Can free music incorporate some core political / human values that can say something about the way you think about society?

YES! 100 %. Without the ideological and political connections and values, I would not be doing this music. Sharing is all. And clearly this music can have an effect on people and society. How to learn to think and act freely if you just listen freely. I believe that we can find ways in this fucked up populistic chaos we are living in. Things that deal with deeper human values. If more people would start to think and act – we can all make a change. But the mainstream media of today prevent most of it. Free and critical thinking is what we need to focus on. What the next generation needs to focus on. I’m not conspiracy-blinded, but we have a long way to go. Especially now, with all AI and stupid algorhythms controlling our lives and the way we live.
If we really learn to interact with each other, in the same way as improvised music is capable of, we would see a more beautiful world. It would sound and look different. YES!

I once argued in some liner notes that you cannot value democracy – exchange / interaction / equality, which are at the heart of free music to me – and at the same time vote for a racist party. Some would argue they are separate things. What do you think?

For sure. That is impossible. Racism is basically just uneducated people being scared of the unknown. Education remains extremely important. And we can never win this battle if people have poor education. Unfortunately, we have very bad systems in our societies right now to change this. Or you have totally lost your mind and are blinded by bad mojo. If the real values are still valid, it would all look different. Populistic extreme right wing bullshit is around us all the time. It is all connected. Values, democracy. Real democracy that is, not the fake one we see in the US and elsewhere), interaction and more. It is ALL connected. Populistic bullshit and mass commercialism are dangerous and prevent people from thinking.

About improvising: does it work best if you get into an intuitive, spontaneous flow, where the music takes over? Or am I giving not enough credit to the thinking/intellectual process? It always feels to me that things get really good when the distance between inspiration and the instrument is as short as possible…

You are correct. There are many different opinions about this. Whatever floats one’s boat. But for me, free music is an intuitive art form. Of course it starts with who you are, whom you play with and what tools you have. But when you enter a state of mind, and not use your intellect, the flow is immense. And beautiful. A stream of consciousness. When you think too much, when you start analysing, you surely become slow. Which means that interaction is delayed. And if you miss the moment, it is gone. The energy is gone. The moment went by. It does not mean you cannot make great music. But within free music and improvisation it needs to be spontaneous and direct. That is totally my two cents.
Of course, there are different levels of free music. Some parameters can be pre-decided and some others can remain open. Creating a play between the spontaneous and the composed. It can create some extremely interesting and creative music. But when free improvised music really works, it is one of the most amazing forms of music. Period. And the opposite is true as well. When free music does not work, it is really the worst kind of music. When someone in the collective is just doing his/her thing, playing too loud, too much, or exposing the ego way too much, the music does not work. And the moment is dead.
Therein lies the challenge that I love so much. And you need to risk it. At every moment you need to risk it and be willing to make the mistakes. And from there, you can move on. My God, these questions are triggers. Perhaps we should make a book together on all this ? Ha ha!!

Be strong, be wrong

A few questions left. Do you still practise the instruments often? Do you even have the time for that?

Time is valuable. More and more so. Priorities need to be set. That is certain. I love practising. And I try to find time every day to do so. Sometimes it is not possible. The pandemic was good on some levels. To be with my family was fantastic. 24/7. What a great year! Strange, but totally great from a family perspective. And when it comes to practising: hell yeah! I have never practised so much since I was a teenager. I picked up the flute again after many many years. Determined to find new paths, angles and techniques. Using my experiences on the reed instruments now on the flute. I started as a classical flute player and the sax destroyed it all, ha ha! So, it was great to get back to this instrument now.
So, yeah – it was great to finally find some new things on that stupid instrument. Very inspiring.
I wish I had more time to practise. I need to cut down some projects and focus more on my instruments. And I want to be HOME more. That is a fact. I need to be home with my girls more. I love it. I love being home. Travelling is worse than ever. Hysterical and just so stressful. Playing music is more creative and fun than ever. Seriously amazing to play in so many great projects and situations right now. But the travelling sucks, big time.

You spent some time in Ethiopia with The Ex. Did you learn anything from that?

I learned not to eat raw meat, ha ha! It was an amazing journey. One of the most amazing travels of all time for me. The connection with the culture, with the musicians. Just magic. I love the culture and the people there. So inspiring. To work with The Ex has always been so extreme. Extremely fun and great! We talk about putting some shit together again now. My roots are in punk and garage and it is great to use that in various settings now. Very rewarding. The new work with Backengrillen, with Refused members, is an amazing opportunity for me to be creative and use my experiences both within improvised music, noise creative rock and hardcore. I recently heard The Ex in Ljubljana, with new material. And it freakin’ RULED!

You have always been an energetic player. Can you still generate the same energy as before? And do you intend to play and perform live as long as you can, or are you looking forward to the moment where you can stay at home and spend more time with the family and… the records?

Ha ha, exactly. To put it mildly: if the energy and commitment fail me, I will stay at home for sure. The energy needs to be there, otherwise it ain’t worth much to me. I know I can play different kinds of music at times, with different energy levels, dynamics and all, when needed and when the challenge is set up. But yeah, the energy needs to be there. Outer and inner energy. I love to stay home more. With my gals and my vinyls. Let’s see how things develop. I just wish I could skip all the travelling. I’m very privileged to be able to do this music and survive doing it. I’ll keep doing it as long as I feel there is a challenge involved. As long as I can find friction in the music to work with. I look forward to where and when the next big challenge will appear.

One more! How cool is it that Wrong by Nomeansno is FINALLY available again after so many years of being out of print?

This is such an important thing. For humanity. For music. For us all. Please check the new project by Dead Bob out! Absolute kick ass!! I managed to pick a copy up in Canada last week. Fuckin amazing!! Wrong remains one of the most important records in my life. Spiritual Unity, Inner Mounting Flame, Dry, The Way Ahead, Gravest Hits, Natural Music and Wrong… what else is needed for a better life?

Guy Peters